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May 23, 2005

Comments

Ronald Rutherford

I appreciate your insightfulness on this issue and presenting another point of view. But I would prefer abstaining from the use of "self-loathing" as an adjective for any group or person you disagree with. How are we to judge what others feel of themselves or their identity? I would object to the use of this phrase when refering to Americans or gays or women or any group. Even if we think their actions are in conflict to our percieved idea of their identity, how are we to criticize their decisions?
While the studies are interesting and may shed light on homophobe feelings, they do not excuse labeling everyone that does not believe in gay marriages as homophobes.
Sorry, kind of off the subject.

Torridjoe

One of my favorite lines from Curb Your Enthusiasm is when someone calls Larry a self-hating Jew. He responds, "Oh, I definitely hate myself--but it has nothing to do with being Jewish."

:) :)

Zap

Ronald, if you linked over to Carla's post on Powerline's homophobia, you would have understood that was another failed attempt at humor on my part. It was a shot at Powerline for their silly handles and gay bashing, not a shot at gays.

My personal feeling on the topic is that it has become way to acceptable to call closeted gays self-loathing, because their unwillingness to be open with their sexuality somehow implies they despise themselves. It's not logical, and it is meanspirited. It is (self-loathingness) just a meme, and it's applied to many other generalities than gays.

I'm going to have to stop crossing easily confused lines like this though. It's the second time in the last half dozen posts. Sorry, if it offended. The gay community at Americablog knows for certain that I do not tolerate gay bashing, and sometimes they have fun with themselves too.

Powerline bashing? That's another story.

Torridjoe

The concept of self-loathing as it applies to gays, I understood to be much less about whether they're out, as whether they actively seek anti-gay legislation and rules that work against their own self-interest. In other words, a gay man who creates laws banning gays from entering into accepted relationships or contracts, has some interesting issues.

Zap

Yeah, I think that is accurate and my explanation is more a symptom. Many found to later be gay were supporting anti-gay agendae.

Also, at Evan Outpost and Belmont Club, I have been called a RINO (Republican in name only) and a self-loathing Republican... because I don't pimp the party line on every issue. It isn't at all offensive to me, but I think many of them are self-deluded conservatives.

Not exactly the comments I expected, but alas.

Ronald Rutherford

Ooops, here I go again. Getting off the topic.
But to respond to Torridjoe, he/she may have issues but that person can still make decisions contrary to his own self interest. No?
Consider Kerry voting to raise taxes on the wealthy? Consider senators that vote to stop farm subsidies? Considers businesses that lobby for free trade?
I am not convinced that banning gay marriage is anti-gay, but I could agree that banning any relationship or not allowing a contract (civil union) would be anti-gay.

Zap

I agree with RR. It's exactly why I stated it isn't logical to conclude one is self-loathing because perhaps they remain in the closet... then more pertinently one is not self-loathing, logically, by acting contrary to self-interest. It's just another meanspirited meme in the meanspirited ether.

Torrid

I think the fundamental difference is that taxes, farm subsidies and free trade are all economic issues. People (like myself) vote against their own economic interest, but usually in the name of expanded opportunity for everyone, or in the interest of fairness. Human/civil rights are another fish entirely, and it's not a zero sum game--you don't give someone else more rights by forfeitting your own.

Banning gay marriage is clearly anti-gay, however, because it's a fully discriminatory position. And I warn you here that this is not one of those issues that I'm apt to loosen my position on, so advance an argument with me at your peril. :)

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